Wednesday, 3 December 2008

Rational discussion with a muslim scholar.

Note: I would NOT appreciate any comments against anybody especially comments with swear. A kurdish Muslim wanted to convert me to islamic and to which I asked for rational proofs and the discussion between us. No offense to anyone. Feel free to discuss and debate via comments with open brains. I would not appreciate any negative remark against islam or hinduism both. Be politically Correct, if you think you can make a point.

Friend:

RATIONAL PROOF

Part 1 Rational proof for the existence of the creator of all that exists , God.

Reality is what we perceive and know that exists for a fact. What we can sense using our 5 senses e.g. Hearing, sight, smell, taste and touch is that in our reality their exists:

• Man (human beings)
• Life (All life forms other than humans e.g. from microbial to animals and plants)
• The Universe (the planets which collectively form solar systems, which in turn form galaxies and then the whole of the universe including the space that it occupies )

These there entities all have 3 attributes in common:
They are limited
1) MAN IS LIMITED BECAUSE HE GROWS TO A CERTAIN LIMIT IN EVERY RESPECT
2) LIFE IS LIMITED BECAUSE IT IS ONLY FOUND IN INDIVIDUALS AND IS THUS CONFINED TO INDVIDUALS e.g. I am alive and have life , but my chair has no life. It is a life less object
3) THE UNIVERSE IS LIMITED BECAUSE IT IS THE SUM OF MANY LIMITED OBJECTS. AND SPACE IS ALSO LIMITED BECAUSE IT IS OCCUPABLE


They are all Dependent on other than themselves for their survival:

1) MAN needs food, water and sleep
2) Life e.g. also needs nourishment form out side itself to survive
3) UNIVERSE is the sum of many atoms which require inter and intra molecular forces to hold it all together and in place

They are all unable to create any physical object without start raw material.
Yet you see the universe exists and from the qualities and attributes that it possesses one concludes that it would be rationally impossible for anything within it to have created itself/ brought itself into existence.

Now where did the universe come from? Well the creator of the universe cannot be limited, dependent on anything and must be able to create out of nothing. He cannot be part of the universe/creation, even though his knowledge is able to encompass it fully.

So the creator must be: Unlimited, Independent, and able to create out of nothing (in fact with the simple command “Be and it becomes”).

When one examines the universe and indeed our own human creation one realizes its complexity and purpose built design. It’s design is intelligent, a fact that ultimately points to the infinite intelligence of its creator. A creator that is living, for dead matter is unable to create.
This unlimited and independent creator is known as Allah/ God.

Some verses form the Quran
Quranic verse surah Ikhlas: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Say: He is Allah, the One;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Also Surah Al-Mulk:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Blessed is He in Whose Hand is the dominion, and He is Able to do all things.

(1) Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed? [] And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;

(2) Who has created the seven heavens one above another, you can see no fault in the creation of the Most Gracious. Then look again: "Can you see any rifts?"

(3) Then look again and yet again, your sight will return to you in a state of humiliation and worn out.



ME:

RE : RATIONAL PROOF

I appreciate your concern but How is islam related to it, not just islam, entire theism?
Some points that you can clear are:
1. Universe, Man and Life have no limitations.
2. Everything is inter-related and not inter-dependant.
3. There can never be creator as it is absolute.

Did not like my points? Yes, it would not because of the super-conviction from non-material to material and followed by theism was your effort however, read on but make sure, you bear in mind one thing that you are not reading ahead to debate with me (using verses of quran, I would not recommend to debate over any auspicious book, neither quran, geeta, bible, etc) and in no way are we even trying to convert each other. simple?

1. Universe has no limitations, look up at the sky and tell me how far does your vision go? vision is yours, you are human, does your vision have limits? does your imagination has limits? Occupied does not mean limited, and repeated makes it unlimited. Life.. What is life? something that starts with birth and ends with death? then why to believe in life after death? why to believe in heaven or hell, you wont see them nor you believe them? am not making you an atheist but trying to open your eyes towards truth which you have super-convinced yourself to ignore. Limitation is not through existence, limitation is a boundary drawn by you to yourself.

2. Everything is inter-related not interdependent. Even an atom is not dependent on anything, molecules get seperated, atoms split too (if you remember hiroshima and nagasaki disaster), does not mean they get evaporated or disappeared. Body is cremated after death, it is not destruction, infact it is removing the inter-related links of the 5 basic elements that human body is made up of. Quran says, Human was made up of earth, I believe even you know that earth necessarily isn't just one element and existence of earth is inter-related to various aspects including space, fire, itself(earth), wind and water, can you make an earthen pot without fire, water, air, dedication?

3. World began with time and will end with time, anything before time and anything after time is null. You need to read einsteins theory of relativity special and general, if your get sometime do read about rip van winkle in twin paradox.


One simple question:

If he is the creator, who created the creator? now please do not come up with answers like Zakir Naik, as I told you I have muslim friends too, they told me Eve was born through a rib, so who created that rib? Don't you believe in theory of evolution by Darwin? if adam was first then how come his description has a navel on it?
Afraid to even think over what I just said because, of hellfire? well then simple, at the time of 'qayamat', the final battle of Allah vs Satan, there will be resurrection, etc. one simple question, everyone knows who will win!!! (as mohammed even did prophecy of the god itself!) my question is: What happens after qayamat? Allah will be bored, now what to do and what not to, so he will again create Satan, again Human beings, and it will go on.

Muslims always compared Hindu vedas with Quran, well Veda also mentioned "it is absolute, it is omni, it has neither feelings nor desires". Simple question, "If god gets angry to someone who does not pray him, then is he not self-obsessed? like humans???"

I will go on and on... I don't know if you are willing to open your eyes!!!

4 comments:

The Romantic Enchantress... said...

You are quite an amazing writer! :) Keep it up!

Amey said...

"1. Universe, Man and Life have no limitations."..this is one of the most powerful sentences...
well, for me god (are) those people who actually live on this earth. everybody is god in some or the other way.
one should have respect for everyone.
questions of life and death.. a man never dies...if he respects the whole world and its life forms. he remains alive in the heart of those many living forms.(sounds filmy but its true)
so man has no limits..(the same applies to all living forms)
universe...science has the answers- ever expanding universe..
and yes..allah creates satan..allah destroys satan..then he again creates satan..i don't get this thing (if allah is the creator of all)
(agreeing to K.D)

Swarajunleashed said...

bhaiya bestest blog i had ever seen

Vivek said...

Oie Smart whats these all heavy lecture i can't read such a big posts but u read comments :P :D

anyways babie u rock \m/